When did Voldemort learn the Dark Arts Options

[shaqhook]

Does anyone know when or where Voldy learned the Dark Arts? Did he find someone in Knockturn Ally? Realy





Please post thoughts.

[minisnitch]

there are many ways he could have learnt them. obviously at school he would have learnt to defend himself against him and that probably made him want to learn them, seeing as he is so power hungry. there are also hundreds of books dedicated to the dark arts, people who could have taught him. because he really wanted to learn about it he would have gone to great lengths. since he would have left school he would have started searching for anything he could find. he is not the only one who ever got himself mixed up in the dark arts, he is just the one to become the most powerful.

[mafalda]

This is actaully explained in HBP.

I'll try not to spoil anything major, but the gist of it was that before Voldemort (or Tom) found out he was a wizard, like Harry he realised that strange things happened when he was angry, upset or afraid. However unlike Harry, he learnt to control it and use it to his advantage. That at least is when he realised he could use his magical abilities for personal gain. Later ofcourse he would have simply gathered information from any source, until later putting it into practice.

Also Dumbledore mentions in CoS that he underwent many magical experiments so it is to be assumed there were other wizards around the world that taught him dark magic or atleast aided him in his researching.

Mafalda

[Maya LaBelle]

... ya, but that wouldn't be how he learned other stuff, like the imperius curse or anything... he could've got it outta a book?

[pwca]

the imperius curse or anything... he could've got it outta a book?

Yeah, why not? I mean, I'm almost sure they would have such things in the restricted section, and the curses were probably not always illeagle; the would have had to have been banned first. (Ack! Icky sentance.)

I mean, things that are illeagle in our world are printed all the time, Mein Kampf for one. Why wouldn't they have books about it?

[Frater Albus]

I have a feeling that people interested in learning the unforgivable curses and things would have no problems finding such knowledge; either in books, or from other people. Didn't Voldemort travel around for a while? Maybe he learnt things while in other countries - if Durmstrang focuses on the dark arts, then presumably they'd know a lot about it over there!

I mean, things that are illeagle in our world are printed all the time, Mein Kampf for one.

Ironic that you choose Mein Kampf as your example - luckily, we live in a democracy, and so we don't burn books like the Nazi's did... even if they do have objectionable content. It's not the books you have to worry about, it's the people who read them.

[Nick_Ottery]

I agree with Frater Albus - we have already seen a distinctly dark side to the world of Harry Potter: the restricted section at Hogwarts; the shady characters seen in the Hogs Head and the Leaky Cauldron; everything in Knockturn Alley and those people who inhabit it. It doesn't seem like it would really take that much effort for somebody like Tom Riddle, thirsty for knowledge, to find the people or information he desired.

What is more disturbing about the unforgiveable curses is not simply knowing the incantations (easily found in a book, or even taught in DADA lessons), but having the feelings within you to really mean those things, and that is perhaps where Voldemorts journey started.

Just a thought - This seems like another of those things where something the bad guys are good at (the unforgiveables) is countered by something the good guys are good at (patronuses). I wonder whether the Death Eaters ever use a patronus, or indeed whether they can summon up one in the first place - would their idea of happiness (power, death and glory) do it? Is Voldemort able to conjure a patronus? Possibly this is one of the things that Dumbledore referred to when he said that Riddle was ignorant of many areas of powerful magic.

[Frater Albus]

Just a thought - This seems like another of those things where something the bad guys are good at (the unforgiveables) is countered by something the good guys are good at (patronuses). I wonder whether the Death Eaters ever use a patronus, or indeed whether they can summon up one in the first place - would their idea of happiness (power, death and glory) do it? Is Voldemort able to conjure a patronus? Possibly this is one of the things that Dumbledore referred to when he said that Riddle was ignorant of many areas of powerful magic.

That's an interesting thought... Patronuses are the embodiment of the caster's happy feelings/memories, so however nasty Voldemort's, or any of the deatheater's for that matter, thoughts are they're bound to have some that they consider good and/or happy. It's a tricky one... It's all well and good saying that only regular magic folk can have just or righteous feelings but these are only points of view.
I'm pretty sure that Voldemort and his followers would consider their actions righteous, no matter how abhorrant everyone else may consider them...

Something I found quite interesting in HPP was that we get a glimpse of the more humane and "normal" side of the deatheaters; through the scenes with Narcissa, Bellatrix & Snape. Although we consider the death-eaters bad people through and through, I think it'd be foolish to think that they don't have good thoughts occasionally, and we get a glimpse of it in Narcissa's frantic worrying over Draco. We see that she's willing to defy Voldemort's orders in order to protect him. Who can say that the death-eaters are wholly incapable of using the 'ancient magic'?

Judging by what we know of Patronuses I'd say that it could be possible for death-eaters, and maybe even Voldemort, to cast a patronus because they rely on memories and feelings that are deemed good/happy by the caster alone - it doesn't matter how they'd be received by someone else.

I hope that makes some semblance of sense....

[Nick_Ottery]

All made sense to me Very good point about the scene in Spinner's End. Narcissa did make you feel quite sorry for her, against all that we have seen (well, more heard) of her through Harry's eyes in the previous books. Certainly she shows enough love towards Draco that she will have happy memories of him.

I agree with what you say about righteousness, but it seems to me that the patronus must have some point of view - Harry really struggled to find a happy enough thought when he was learning with Lupin (though admittedly that could just be due to the advanced level of magic). Could the magic itself have some point of view on what is truly a happy thought and does it have to be a universally happy thought - something truly "good" such as winning at Quidditch or seeing your friends, rather than a death that you felt particularly good about which most people would not see as a "happy thought". I suppose what I'm getting at is do the Death Eaters (who admittedly have friends and so on) possess powerful enough "good" happy memories to cnjure a patronus, if a "good" happy memory is a requirement. I hope I'm making a bit of sense here...

Interesting stuff; I hope we get more of an insight into the personal lives of the Death Eaters - it was fascinating to see Narcissa struggling with her ties to Voldemort and her concern for Draco.

Finally, I suppose that the other way to look at is not whether a Death Eater could conjure a patronus, but whether they would conjure a patronus. Has Voldemort enstilled in them the same contempt that he holds for the 'ancient magic' which Dumbledore has put so much faith in?

[CShaltar]

There isn't really a need for the Death Eaters to conjure Patronuses anyway. They're in league with the dementors, so they wouldn't need to drive them away - it would just hurt their cause. The Death Eaters have to have some other way of communicating with the dementors (and some other sort of protection, even if it's just the Death Eater status, that prevents their souls from being sucked).

And the Death Eaters don't need to use Patronuses to communicate, either. The Dark Mark does the trick very nicely. Voldemort seems to like having most of his cronies in the dark, so communication between the Death Eaters themselves doesn't seem to be very vital. Voldemort can also get whatever information he wants through Legilimency.

Are there other uses for the Patronus Charm that the Death Eaters could possibly know about? Perhaps they hold the charm in contempt simply because it is useless to them and antithetical to their existence. The dementors drive away happy thoughts, and the Patronus drives away dementors. Death Eaters reign based on fear.

However, my guess would be that the Patronus Charm doesn't discriminate based on good and evil. Harry only needs happy feelings to conjure the charm. It just so happens that his happy feelings revolve around innocent events. We know that Voldemort is occasionally happy due to fortuitous happenings, but I wonder if he isn't really feeling some sort of satisfaction or vindication, rather than true happiness.

[Frater Albus]

I suppose what I'm getting at is do the Death Eaters (who admittedly have friends and so on) possess powerful enough "good" happy memories to cnjure a patronus, if a "good" happy memory is a requirement. I hope I'm making a bit of sense here...

Yep, I think I understand what you mean. I'd dread to think what voldemort considers a good memory - murdering his father, being resurrected? - but these wouldn't be considered 'good' or 'righteous' or whatever, so they may not have the same power or impact that a truly good memory does.

There isn't really a need for the Death Eaters to conjure Patronuses anyway.

Heh, true... but I bet it would've helped when they were locked up in Azkaban Then again, Sirius didn't seem to have had much of a chance to conjure a Patronus while he was at Azkaban either.

The dementors drive away happy thoughts, and the Patronus drives away dementors. Death Eaters reign based on fear.

If the Dementors had no effect on Deatheaters they wouldn't have been stationed at Azkaban. Not even the deatheaters are completely above fear.

[Nick_Ottery]

Yep, I think I understand what you mean. I'd dread to think what voldemort considers a good memory - murdering his father, being resurrected? - but these wouldn't be considered 'good' or 'righteous' or whatever, so they may not have the same power or impact that a truly good memory does.

Excellent, that is exactly what I was getting at - you put it more succinctly than me

On the Patronus front, I personally think it is more than just a Demementor deterrent - I think that is one of the uses that a very powerful piece of 'ancient magic' has been put to in the years since Voldemort came to power and organised the Dementors into the force they are. Before Voldemort came along it is my opinion that the Dementors were a scattered race surviving individually or in small groups.

I think the Patronus charm is some seriously advanced magic (lots of people are very impressed that Harry can do it) deriving from "good happy, rightoeus thoughts" that can be used for many different purposes, only by a "good" magical person.

For the purposes of the series it has been used to counter a direct threat to Harry from the Dementors but that, I don't think, means it is restricted to that one purpose. Whoever assumes the role of Harry's DADA tutor next (if that is what happens), I hope they will build on this powerful learning.

[Frater Albus]

I've never considered the Patronus charm anything more than a Dementor repellant, to be honest. I figure that JK just thought, considering the way she presented the Dementors, that the best thing to defeat total evil is its complete opposite. I don't think it'll develop much further than that - I doubt the next DADA teacher would teach it or anything - we know that it's very advanced magic, and since Harry's left school now it won't make much of a difference to him anyway.

[The Boy Potter]

He learned the Dark Arts when he worked in a shop at knockturn alley!

[Nick_Ottery]

I've never considered the Patronus charm anything more than a Dementor repellant, to be honest.

I'm sure you are right - I think I just like to think that things like the patronus charm have an ancient and noble history and that modern day witches and wizards have adopted it to deal with a particular problem

What I meant by Harry's DADA tutor was someone like Lupin who might spend some time with him during the course of book 7 - I don't think that Hogwarts will be a scene of any traditional educating next year.

He learned the Dark Arts when he worked in a shop at knockturn alley!

I agree that he will certainly have picked up some ideas/learning etc during his time at Borgin and Burkes, but I think that it is fairly certain (from what Dumbledore says) that he was already steeped in the Dark Arts by the time he left Hogwarts.

[Liza]

There are some books in Hogwarts' library about the Dark Arts, Hermione looked 'Horcruxes' up in several, one didn't want to say anything about them because they are too bad to talk about. It was called "Magicke Moste Evile". So maybe Tom read in that book, got interested in the Horcruxes and asked Slughorn about them. Maybe he also asked Slughorn (and other teachers) about other branches of Dark magic?

Maybe he also had connections at Knockturn Alley? I bet there are some folk down that lane that know all about the Dark Arts and are willing to tell anybody about them who asks.